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	<title>Comments on: Why I Don&#8217;t Use Story Points for Sprint Planning</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning</link>
	<description>Succeeding With Agile®</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:09:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Calculating Capacity of an Agile Team « mikkeman.nl</title>
		<link>http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning/comment-page-1#comment-51109</link>
		<dc:creator>Calculating Capacity of an Agile Team « mikkeman.nl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 08:24:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/?p=15#comment-51109</guid>
		<description>[...] to be delivered (given a fixed release date). Several people have written extensively on agile estimating and planning and the importance of hours and story points in the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to be delivered (given a fixed release date). Several people have written extensively on agile estimating and planning and the importance of hours and story points in the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Work Stories, Not Tasks &#171; Dayley Agile</title>
		<link>http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning/comment-page-1#comment-50506</link>
		<dc:creator>Work Stories, Not Tasks &#171; Dayley Agile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/?p=15#comment-50506</guid>
		<description>[...] agile leaders don&#8217;t agree about estimating only tasks or only stories or both.  For example, Mike Cohn recommends story points for release and backlog planning but time on tasks for sprint plan....  Well, inspect and adapt is the agile way.  We tried only estimating time on tasks for a while [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] agile leaders don&#8217;t agree about estimating only tasks or only stories or both.  For example, Mike Cohn recommends story points for release and backlog planning but time on tasks for sprint plan&#8230;.  Well, inspect and adapt is the agile way.  We tried only estimating time on tasks for a while [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Story Pointless &#124; Scrumology</title>
		<link>http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning/comment-page-1#comment-50208</link>
		<dc:creator>Story Pointless &#124; Scrumology</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 03:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/?p=15#comment-50208</guid>
		<description>[...] useful in Release Planning? This concept is fairly useless when it comes near term planning. Even Mike Cohn suggests to use Hours instead of Points when Sprint [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] useful in Release Planning? This concept is fairly useless when it comes near term planning. Even Mike Cohn suggests to use Hours instead of Points when Sprint [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Cohn</title>
		<link>http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning/comment-page-1#comment-47872</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Cohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 23:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/?p=15#comment-47872</guid>
		<description>Hi Maritza--
Thanks for sharing your story of re-adopting scrum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Maritza&#8211;<br />
Thanks for sharing your story of re-adopting scrum.</p>
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		<title>By: Maritza</title>
		<link>http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning/comment-page-1#comment-47852</link>
		<dc:creator>Maritza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/?p=15#comment-47852</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this very useful article, Mike! We re-ignited our scrum process in January 2009, after a fairly dismal attempt at &quot;going agile&quot; in 2008. We&#039;ve just finished our first major release cycle, using scrum throughout and tweaking as we went along, but sticking to velocity and story points for estimation and release plans. 

Although a lot went well with this &quot;re-adoption&quot; of scrum, the biggest issue has been estimation, and that the entire team feels that story points are not sufficient for actual work planning on sprints. This post on the role of story points and task hours, and the two burndown charts you use, come at the perfect time for us as we&#039;re relooking our estimation techniques before we start our next major release cycle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this very useful article, Mike! We re-ignited our scrum process in January 2009, after a fairly dismal attempt at &#8220;going agile&#8221; in 2008. We&#8217;ve just finished our first major release cycle, using scrum throughout and tweaking as we went along, but sticking to velocity and story points for estimation and release plans. </p>
<p>Although a lot went well with this &#8220;re-adoption&#8221; of scrum, the biggest issue has been estimation, and that the entire team feels that story points are not sufficient for actual work planning on sprints. This post on the role of story points and task hours, and the two burndown charts you use, come at the perfect time for us as we&#8217;re relooking our estimation techniques before we start our next major release cycle.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Cohn</title>
		<link>http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning/comment-page-1#comment-46576</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Cohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 23:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/?p=15#comment-46576</guid>
		<description>Tom--
That will work over the long term but will not work in the short term (i.e., one sprint), which is exactly why *I* don&#039;t recommend this approach to planning a sprint. Two examples of why it doesn&#039;t work:

1) It is analogous to taking the scoring average of the players on a basketball team, adding those up and saying &quot;This basketball team will score 92.5 points tonight.&quot; No. That may be their average to-date and it may be their average over the next 10 games but it is very unlikely to be their exact score tonight.

2) When I worked at the car wash as a kid, we each had a quota of four cars per hour. No one expected me to get exactly four cars per hour. Maybe not even 32 cars in an 8 hour day. But the quota was a useful measure over longer periods. 

So, velocity is a useful long-term measure but not a particularly useful measure in the short term as in planning a single sprint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom&#8211;<br />
That will work over the long term but will not work in the short term (i.e., one sprint), which is exactly why *I* don&#8217;t recommend this approach to planning a sprint. Two examples of why it doesn&#8217;t work:</p>
<p>1) It is analogous to taking the scoring average of the players on a basketball team, adding those up and saying &#8220;This basketball team will score 92.5 points tonight.&#8221; No. That may be their average to-date and it may be their average over the next 10 games but it is very unlikely to be their exact score tonight.</p>
<p>2) When I worked at the car wash as a kid, we each had a quota of four cars per hour. No one expected me to get exactly four cars per hour. Maybe not even 32 cars in an 8 hour day. But the quota was a useful measure over longer periods. </p>
<p>So, velocity is a useful long-term measure but not a particularly useful measure in the short term as in planning a single sprint.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning/comment-page-1#comment-46575</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 22:48:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/?p=15#comment-46575</guid>
		<description>If you want to measure how much work a team can accomplish in a time period you need 2 different units of measure:  work and time.  

Try defining a measure for velocity.  For example:  lets say 1 velocity point is 1 story point of work per person per day (1 vp = 1 sp / 1 person * 1 day).  Once you know the velocity points for your team, calculating the amount of work that can be accomplished in an iteration should just be a matter of plugging in the numbers and doing the math.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want to measure how much work a team can accomplish in a time period you need 2 different units of measure:  work and time.  </p>
<p>Try defining a measure for velocity.  For example:  lets say 1 velocity point is 1 story point of work per person per day (1 vp = 1 sp / 1 person * 1 day).  Once you know the velocity points for your team, calculating the amount of work that can be accomplished in an iteration should just be a matter of plugging in the numbers and doing the math.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Cohn</title>
		<link>http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning/comment-page-1#comment-31775</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Cohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 01:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/?p=15#comment-31775</guid>
		<description>James--
I suggest sticking with a traditional sprint burndown chart--hours remaining on the vertical axis and days across the horizontal. Update this chart once per day based on hours as shown at that time in the tool or task board the team uses. 

Augment that with with another really simple graph that you can update once a day at the same day. This graph should also have days across the horizontal axis but on the vertical axis, graph the number of completed user stories or product backlog items. Unless a team is used to trying to finish one or two stories before moving on to the next few, the line will start out flat for many days. It will then magically surge upward as all user stories are &quot;finished&quot; on the last two days. Well, except testers find a ton of bugs in them, so they aren&#039;t really done. Have the whole team agree at the standup whether a particular story is &quot;done.&quot; If it is, that story is counted in the day&#039;s progress. Here&#039;s an example:
&lt;img src=&quot;http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/wp-content/uploads/storiesbyday.jpg&quot; alt=&quot;the number of stories finished per day&quot; /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James&#8211;<br />
I suggest sticking with a traditional sprint burndown chart&#8211;hours remaining on the vertical axis and days across the horizontal. Update this chart once per day based on hours as shown at that time in the tool or task board the team uses. </p>
<p>Augment that with with another really simple graph that you can update once a day at the same day. This graph should also have days across the horizontal axis but on the vertical axis, graph the number of completed user stories or product backlog items. Unless a team is used to trying to finish one or two stories before moving on to the next few, the line will start out flat for many days. It will then magically surge upward as all user stories are &#8220;finished&#8221; on the last two days. Well, except testers find a ton of bugs in them, so they aren&#8217;t really done. Have the whole team agree at the standup whether a particular story is &#8220;done.&#8221; If it is, that story is counted in the day&#8217;s progress. Here&#8217;s an example:<br />
<img src="http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/wp-content/uploads/storiesbyday.jpg" alt="the number of stories finished per day" /></p>
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		<title>By: blog.adsystems.com.br &#187; Porque não uso &#8220;story points&#8221; para o planejamento do sprint (tradução livre do post de Mike Cohn)</title>
		<link>http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning/comment-page-1#comment-31736</link>
		<dc:creator>blog.adsystems.com.br &#187; Porque não uso &#8220;story points&#8221; para o planejamento do sprint (tradução livre do post de Mike Cohn)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 11:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/?p=15#comment-31736</guid>
		<description>[...] Traduzi o post de Mike Cohn em seu blog: &#8220;Why I Don’t Use Story Points for Sprint Planning&#8220;. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Traduzi o post de Mike Cohn em seu blog: &#8220;Why I Don’t Use Story Points for Sprint Planning&#8220;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: James Brook</title>
		<link>http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/why-i-dont-use-story-points-for-sprint-planning/comment-page-1#comment-31460</link>
		<dc:creator>James Brook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mountaingoatsoftware.com/?p=15#comment-31460</guid>
		<description>Mike,

This article is a really big help. At the moment I am the ScrumMaster for a team that has two burndown charts for each sprint. One for story points over the sprint and one for task hours. I agree with you that story points aren&#039;t a useful short term metric during the sprint. I don&#039;t feel that the separate task burndown in hours is adding much value. The developers like the feeling of completing tasks and updating the burndown, but we are getting into the situation where we have burnt nearly all of our task hours without burning any story points! Obviously this is wrong.

I would like to change so that we only have one burndown for stories, but estimated in hours as you propose. I have a few questions though:

* Should we sum the hours estimated for each task and call that the &#039;hour estimate&#039; for the story?
* When do we award hours and update the graph? Shouldn&#039;t this only happen after all tasks are complete and the customer acceptance tests for the story all pass? The story is *done*.
* If we only award hours when stories are *done*, then at any moment in time our burndown chart doesn&#039;t reflect all the latest knowledge that we have. For instance how do we handle adding and claiming the points for a 5 hour &#039;internal to the story&#039; bug fix task?
*  Does all of this mean that our stories are too big? We are developing a complex Web interface and find it hard to get to very small stories without going into detail on the UI and even then we end up with stories that are not independent.

Thanks for your illuminating article.
--
James</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,</p>
<p>This article is a really big help. At the moment I am the ScrumMaster for a team that has two burndown charts for each sprint. One for story points over the sprint and one for task hours. I agree with you that story points aren&#8217;t a useful short term metric during the sprint. I don&#8217;t feel that the separate task burndown in hours is adding much value. The developers like the feeling of completing tasks and updating the burndown, but we are getting into the situation where we have burnt nearly all of our task hours without burning any story points! Obviously this is wrong.</p>
<p>I would like to change so that we only have one burndown for stories, but estimated in hours as you propose. I have a few questions though:</p>
<p>* Should we sum the hours estimated for each task and call that the &#8216;hour estimate&#8217; for the story?<br />
* When do we award hours and update the graph? Shouldn&#8217;t this only happen after all tasks are complete and the customer acceptance tests for the story all pass? The story is *done*.<br />
* If we only award hours when stories are *done*, then at any moment in time our burndown chart doesn&#8217;t reflect all the latest knowledge that we have. For instance how do we handle adding and claiming the points for a 5 hour &#8216;internal to the story&#8217; bug fix task?<br />
*  Does all of this mean that our stories are too big? We are developing a complex Web interface and find it hard to get to very small stories without going into detail on the UI and even then we end up with stories that are not independent.</p>
<p>Thanks for your illuminating article.<br />
&#8211;<br />
James</p>
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