In fact they needed that notional value when guessing the story point figure.

Seems like there’s a lot of tap-dancing around to avoid reality?

Thanks a lot!

As you may have seen, there is a lot of discussion in the comments of “It’s Effort, Not Complexity” about the fact that complexity can influence the estimate but only to the extent the complexity influences the effort involved.

I love your other analogy on complexity. Licking 1000+ stamps and brain surgery may have same story points or effort but can we see the contrast in complexity?

While I like to describe points as size, I need to think in industry standard terms. I should use Effort and Duration.

To use the two industry standard terms there are really two things we are interested in: Effort and Duration. We use story points as an estimate of Effort. You are right that a “measure of size [effort] does not fluctuate.” I use the example of moving a pile of rocks from one place to another. The effort of doing that (perhaps measured as kilograms moved x the distance moved) is the same whether I do it or my young daughter does it.

What changes will be duration–if I do it the duration will be shorter than if my young daughter does it. The easiest way to think of calculating duration is as Effort (in Story Points) divided by Velocity (in Story Points). If we think of teams of one person, my velocity will be higher than my daughters so my duration is shorter.

So, I think the points you are making are valid except I’d change “effort” in a few of your sentences to be duration. Think of duration as the amount of time elapsed on a clock or calendar. Your team on the road example fits when about duration.

My mind is cracking under the ideas posted here and I find myself challenging personal assumptions. I have been assuming story points are pure relative size of backlog items one another. Only from a team, can we have and measure effort. Different circumstances require different effort. Storypoints which is a measure of size do not fluctuate.

Are there 2 separate principles here, one is size and the other is the effort?

Suppose a road is estimated 1 mile long. It may not be worth it but if we want exact accuracy we can measure it with long tape: say 1.2135 miles
However, the team who traverse this road may take different effort. Sometimes 20 minutes. They got thirsty, they stop by a restaurant, end up 25 minutes. Or they don’t mind sweating and sprinting, it takes 10 minutes.

Is there a 3rd principle cost, the need for a drink at restaurant, we didn’t know there is a toll gate in addition to the effort?

So if we give just story point and effort principle a relationship, wouldn’t it be velocity? Can help me check if my understanding is correct?